AD&D 2nd Confusion. Lots and lots of confusion.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:43 am

Under number of languages for Intelligence

2nd edition PHB wrote:If the DM allows characters to have proficiencies, this column also indicates the number of extra proficiency slots the character gains due to his intelligence. Those extra proficiency slots can be used however the player desires.

With profs, you have to buy the languages, so it gives you slots that you can buy hit and damage with instead.

The 2e racial stat table is pre-adjustment, which is in the text for the table. Demi-humans can all have 19 in their best stat.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:46 pm

I need to raid the book of humanoids with attribute generation method VI. Shite, having startig Str and/or Con of 22 sounds solid.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:23 pm

when trying to min-max of "optimize" 2nd, remember one important thing. save-or-die exists around every corner. being too narrow focused could be a bane rather than a boon.

if you are going book of humanoids, look at the monstrous traits, or was that CP system? i will check later when i get to the computer with the CRx on it.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:50 pm

Holy jumping Jezuz, just found the magical warhammers in the DMG. What where they smoking? You don't even need to specialize, heck not even proficiency is necessary to fucking MURDER anything and everything.

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:01 am

Ahem...

Hicks wrote:Told you so.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:12 am

To be fair, in 2nd edition you can pretty much just murder anything and everything by 7th level anyway, unless the DM goes digging for a 1-round TPK. You always need basic items, weapon and armour or spellbook, but I used to see parties cut down hundreds of fairly serious monsters by then. They needed to with those XP awards.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:04 am

Hicks wrote:Told you so.

That's why I went looking... still I did not expect that.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:56 am

tussock wrote:To be fair, in 2nd edition you can pretty much just murder anything and everything by 7th level anyway, unless the DM goes digging for a 1-round TPK. You always need basic items, weapon and armour or spellbook, but I used to see parties cut down hundreds of fairly serious monsters by then. They needed to with those XP awards.

What if your enemies were equivalent level PC?

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:54 pm

Rawbeard wrote:Holy jumping Jezuz, just found the magical warhammers in the DMG. What where they smoking? You don't even need to specialize, heck not even proficiency is necessary to fucking MURDER anything and everything.

But in 2nd edition thinking, those hammers aren't a problem. Because 'sane*' 2nd ed DM don't hand those fucking things out, ever. And since magic item control is entirely DM fiat, it is only a problem if the DM makes it one. Or if someone needs to push a 10+ level fighter into keeping up with the rest
of the party

*relatively speaking. Sane people don't run 2nd ed.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:21 pm

I hate that 'it's in the books to never ever use' mentality with items. People over here make a religion out of that. You want a magic item? No way!

Sad anecdote from my early years. Late in a loooong campaign, after most magic items and artifacts were handed to NPCs (no, really), I managed to obtain a magic sword! Well... I had it custom made... and it was not really easy. It's magic ability? It could cast light. Fuckin' A! But at least it was a weapon that did not break every other strike, so there was that. My warrior was loaded with weapons because of weapon breakage and fumbling in combat, so that was a massive quality of life improvement. I was very fine with that.

Later on, same campaign a dying dragon asked us to cut out his soul stone (they have those, don't ask me what they do, never really cared, stupid setting anyway. Das Schwarze Auge / The Dark Eye if anyone cares) and bring it to some dragon graveyard thingy. So, cutting yourself into a dead dragon still means you have to basically cut yourself into lava. Fun times. Druid, Mage and Thief types didn't have a chance to survive this, so choice came down to me or the mighty, brave and glorious Paladin. That was the moment I started to hate Paladins, or rather the people playing them. Fucker refused. Too dangerous. So after I get myself burned to a crisp (again, so I had the experience advantage on that 'inconvenience) I say to myself 'I want a fucking trophy. I did this shit not for free' so I cut the dragon into more pieces and took a bunch of it's skin to get some leather armor made of this. Not some uber magical platemail of dragongodness. Just some leather armor with dragonscales on them. MC went into full panic mode. Basically 'that is way to awesome to have, only like two NPCs have something like that, you cannot!'. He went out of his way to make sure I could not deliver that shit to the guy who could make armor out of it. So I got eaten by a giant, acid-mawed demon. That took care of my skin condition, at least, but...

FUCK THE FUCKING FUCK OUT OF THAT.

btw, I survived that. So that was at least moderatly awesome.

God damn, that needed to get out. Ok, therapy time is over, nothing to see here. Move along.

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:10 am

One thing that sometimes works with older school MCs is to ask to go on a quest for something. Don't just ask for it, but if you say that your character longs to harness the power of $Magic_Item for $Reason your MC may or may not be inclined to give you a plot thread that connects you to it. There is the off chance that he gives you a plot thread that leads no where, but as long as your MC isn't the greatest of douches they'll just say no instead of leading you on a merry goose chase.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:44 am

Rawbeard wrote:I hate that 'it's in the books to never ever use' mentality with items. People over here make a religion out of that. You want a magic item? No way!

there are no magic items in the PHB in 2nd. it describes what type of items may exist, but doesnt define items. its isnt 3rd where you can spend a weekend making a bag of holding full of CLWWs.

the DM is given instruction on magic item creation rules. the players should be the ones coming up with new items that:

1. fit their character/party
2. fit the world/game being played in
3. arent made jsut to break the game
4. arent of artifact equivalent power

the rules exist to work. the fact your DM is a fucktard is not the rules fault, but his own.

again this BS about 2nd and what it does, versus the fact that the DMs are the cause of the problem, not the rules. bad DMs exist in ALL editions and in ALL games.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:12 am

I never tried to imply that was a problem with the rules, just to clarify. That was MC fucktardation. The aformentioned campaign had early on something like an magical arms expo where NPCs showed off shit like magical power armor, just to remind you WHAT YOU CANNOT HAVE.

Seriously, if something is so in your face about how much fun you are not allowed to have with the toys it has lying around, it has to be german...

I hate my community... I seriously feel like starting a flamewar on some random german DSA board just to get the bile out of my system.

*deep breathing* I am calm, I can find my centre by punching an elf...

K · Post by K » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:53 am

DnD 3e was a response to the fact that 2e was unplayable about half the time regardless of the quality of your DM.

3e specifically has rules for magic item creation, wealth-by-level, and magic item marts to address the clusterfuck that was 2e magic items where people had to suck DM dick to get what they needed to play the game at all.

And it mostly worked.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:14 am

Rawbeard wrote:FUCK THE FUCKING FUCK OUT OF THAT.

I'm sure you know the solution to that.

PoliteNewb · Post by **PoliteNewb** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:21 am

K wrote:DnD 3e was a response to the fact that 2e was unplayable about half the time regardless of the quality of your DM.

3e specifically has rules for magic item creation, wealth-by-level, and magic item marts to address the clusterfuck that was 2e magic items where people had to suck DM dick to get what they needed to play the game at all.

And it mostly worked.

LOL. Dude, seriously. That was retarded.

1.) Using the 3E for WBL and item creation does not "mostly work". It makes the game insane.

2.) AD&D didn't require you to have "what you needed to play the game at all". 3E is the one that made magic items mandatory and told fighters to eat a dick. As long as your DM wasn't a complete shitheel and let you have a +2 sword at some point, you could go from stabbing orcs to slaying Dispater without any problems. And despite the constant "suck the DM's cock" stories I hear about, most DM's I've ever met dumped magic items on the PC's heads like candy, because magic items were awesome.

3.) AD&D was playable most of the time up to level 9, if you had a decent DM. If you didn't, then yes, it sucked ass. This is a bug, not a feature...but I don't consider it worse than most of the bugs 3E has.

4.) Playing any game RAW is masochistic, because all rule sets are fucked up. Take one, tinker with it enough to be decent and fun, and play it.

Rawbeard, I just read your sob story...and I genuinely feel bad for you. Your DM was a douche. But it was not AD&D that encouraged him to be a douche. Most of the douchey stuff he did to you was his own ass-pulled houserules. Some people are dickholes, whattyagonnado.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:23 am

So, what flaws in AD&D was D&D2e made to address

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:08 am

I had many fucktarded MCs over the years. It boggles the mind. And when you think you have seen it all some says 'fun is the lowest form of entertainmet and way to lowbrow for fantasy roleplaying games'. Many agreed.

CHOCKESLAM, MOTHERFUCKERS! (thx@koumei)

The saner people I know unfortunatly have a massive boner for Savage Worlds...

Back on topic, my dwarf is now specialized in darts (screw it, I'll make the MC understand what those are) and bastard swords. This should keep my demand for versatility happy... but I'll try to sweettalk the MC into letting me pick warhammers via Myrmidon. Because apparantly ultimate soldiers don't like those...whatever.

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:52 am

OgreBattle wrote:So, what flaws in AD&D was D&D2e made to address

Flippantly? Because E. Gary Gygax "wrote" AD&D, and had just been ousted.

Seriously? Calculated THAC"0" replaces a hidden lookup chart in the DMG as the attacking mechanic, what spells actually did was printed in the PHB instead of hidden in the DMG, the "optional" proficiency rules replaced generic "You are your character, and anything you can do your character can do too! Read up in an actual, physical library and then describe to your DM how your elf sails a boat!" and specific weapon proficiencies replaced the list of allowed weapons from your class, most of the classes were grouped into related superclasses (fighter, ranger, and paladin are now warriors, and clerics and druid's are examples of priests) while others (I'm looking at you, bard) were made into new classes (originally the bard was a fat sack of crazy to top off dual classing amongst the fighter, thief, and druid classes) and others still were dropped like hot potatoes uranium rods (ninja, monk, set state = die_in_a_fire)...

...And because E. Gary Gygax was ousted. Seriously, fuck that guy.

K · Post by K » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:58 am

OgreBattle wrote:So, what flaws in AD&D was D&D2e made to address

It standardized the classes a bit so that people could play bards from level 1 and not change class three times, it cleaned up the spells so that illusion was no longer a separate kind of magic, and made small refinements like standardized demons, no more "anything" magic items, and the non-proficiency system for skills.

Just a lot of small and non-controversial improvements mostly. Nothing so drastic that your 1e material was no longer compatible.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:01 pm

I was really amused by the Min/Maxing section in the DMG. If someone makes a choice that is effective, PUNISH THEM. So cute.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:35 pm

Rawbeard wrote:Seriously, if something is so in your face about how much fun you are not allowed to have with the toys it has lying around, it has to be german...

this is the kind of thing that MANY DMs peopel were vocal about online during 2e were probably doing, and all the hearsay you get around here from the likes of some people are based on that hearsay, or blaming the game for the shitty DM they have been powerhungry mouth breathers that get off on making their friends feel like shit.

so 2e took the brunt of it, and the DMs werent fixed, so exist still today in ALL editions and games, sadly. nobody will stand up and say to them "hey you fucking suck, get out of the game and go away".

it is/was a behavoir that is still being allowed by players, and time the players jsut got rid of the bad DMs, and tried the games the right way, they way that makes it enjoyable, and send these douchesuckers on their merry way.

so many people, like yourself, miss out on good games and turn away from a game or edition BECAUSE the shitty DM. Hey you are german, so just deck the fucker in the jaw and tell him to sit down, and dont take his shit. or you could go for the more civil route and talk to him or the other players about it, if the game is still being played.

worst-case scenario, try DMing it yourself, and if your DM plays, or wants to, jsut tell him you dont allow assholes in your games, and run a better game and maybe he will learn or just leave the game.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:40 pm

OgreBattle wrote:So, what flaws in AD&D was D&D2e made to address

honest answer? to remove the name E Gary Gygax from the books.

after that it was to remove his over-wordiness, and organize the shit pile of books he wrote without editors.

also that had to appease the Jack Chick and bible thumping crowd and remove demons and devils, though the Vatican denied their existence until this century.

it also added the "best of" accessories that people wrote in to Dragon saying they used from Dragon or from UA and other supplements like NWPs in the core books, though it wasnt finished.

LW, pretty much was doing to Gary, what Gary did to Dave, and she wanted to make money off the name like WotC did when it took the name of D&D and changed it.

you can check the Wikipedia entry for more changes and "fixes" to 1e, but both are very playable.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:44 pm

Rawbeard wrote:I was really amused by the Min/Maxing section in the DMG. If someone makes a choice that is effective, PUNISH THEM. So cute.

it doesnt say punish them, it puts the game and group before a single narrow focused character. as with the example on this forum where someone thought a DM owed him a rapier upgrade in treasure because his/her character only used rapiers, the DM was told basically to remind the players they are working together. this was an attempt to stop things like making a thief moot by letting a wizard take all spells that purposefully make the thief redundant and work better than some of the thieving skills.

it is a cooperative game, not a one-man-army game. that is what BattleSystem was for. so you didnt want to be so narrowly focused you couldnt do anything outside of what you maxxed out. (see uber fighter not being able to do much in diplomatic situations since he was maxxed for att/dmg)

duo31 · Post by **duo31** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:46 pm

Just noticed this shit:

2e DMO:HLC Chapter 3 wrote: Memorizing a spell is a difficult task that requires a clear head from a good night’s sleep and 10 minutes of effort per level of the spell (see the Player’s Handbook, Chapter 7).

WTF!! so it takes a 20th level wizard 30hrs to memorize his spells for the day assuming he isn't a specialist or have bonus spells.

I know that math is hard, but what the shit? at best it should be 10min per highest level known, so at most you only waste an hour and half of your day doing complex calculus in your head.